[yugaya]

Roman Catholic records for IĐOŠ are available online via Kalocsa diocese e-archive:

http://www.rodoslovlje.com/en/forum/vojvodina/kalocsa-roman-catholic-archdiocese-e-archive

We do look-ups of available records in this e-archive for members of "Rodoslovlje".

[yugaya]

I will repost your query on the boards where historians and history teachers from Serbia hang out.  Based on military records your ancestor may have been initially presumed dead as he was MIA, and the later  additional note may have been the result of military authorities receiving new information about him – there should be a paper trail and you need to examine the full archival holdings from his army unit/command -all memos and correspondence.

As for the Military Archive in Belgrade – I have not contacted them personally yet but will make a few calls and see if I can find out that way about which records exist and where. If that yields no results, you may have to fill out an official request for information and pay them a fee for that to get their official reply.

[yugaya]

I will review the documents – so far I can see that  there is a correction of the translation of the birth certificate to be made – the column *marital status* ( брачност или небрачност ) relates to whether the parents of the child were married or not  and not he as your uncle interpreted it – this is because Serbs had to serve obligatory military service before they could obtain the written permission from the regiment command to get married by the church.

[yugaya]

Yes, full first name MIHAJLO / MIHAILO was often shortened to MIĆO or MIĆA.

About household numbers – when a member of a family commune – *zadruga*  moved out of the primary home ( for instance there were two brothers and the younger one was getting married or came into some money) , he would build himself a new home in closest proximity of the primary home – so often relatives from same family lived in consecutive numbers. The household numbers in that area that are in church vital records throughout XIX century and in Privrednik database remained unchanged until after WWII.

I will look up the Gornje Dubrave available records, I think I found and looked at some but need to backtrack what I researched before I can give you an accurate answer. 🙂

As for contacting dr. Zatezalo – I will try to do that for you again – you need to understand that any *outsider* contact with any Serbs or their organizations in Croatia – by outsider here I mean someone who does not contact them through a reliable or known person – usually gets no answer. Same goes for the church, and this is down to the reality of Serbs in Croatia – they still get intimidated and provoked on daily basis, even with only so few of them who live there today.

You always need to attach a recommendation from your priest if your family is still Serbian Orthodox, or find some relative who knows someone personally there who will contact them on your behalf.

If it is any consolation – I have never received any reply from *Prosvjeta* either, and I even offered to translate stuff for them for free. :)))

So far the most help have been priests from Eparchy of Upper-Karlovac, and we at Rodoslovlje have the blessing of their head, vladika Gerasim, to help and assist people who are looking for ancestors from the territory covered by their parishes. Your ancestral parish of origin belongs to this eparchy, so I will try to see if there are any other sources the church can help you with – they have no vital records in their posession, unfortunatelly, none have ever been returned to them (unlike the records of Roman Catholic Church in Croatia).

Do you have info on immediate family members and whether they remained in Gornje Dubrave after the WWII?

Do you know about the members of these two families from the households you have the number for who were killed during the WWII?

Any other names of siblings or relatives who also emigrated you know of?

I think I was helping someone with family from Gornje Dubrave, and trying to explain how with so many original records destroyed, whenever doing genealogy in that area people need to keep in mind that what we can do is – reconstruction of a family line, in most cases only partial. If you have copies of church records (which is awesome btw) or locate relatives in the old country it is easy to go back at least one generation into the past for those who emigrated – most people over here know their ancestors back until around 1850 without any effort. From there further into past, only painstaiking reconstruction from available original sources  will bring you more information. Reconstructing only one parish  or a family line from one household takes months. So – be patient. :))))

[yugaya]

I will also update this thread when I check period records for the surnames you listed , it may take about a week to do that.

[yugaya]

I will forward your question to our team member for Serbia  but if their birthplace was *Austria* I doubt anyone was born in Belgrade.

The misconception that your ancestors came from Serbia is the result from them trying to articulate to the best of their abilities the fact that they were Serbs/Serbian, especially if they came from places like Croatia or some other territory where they were minority population and their true ethnicity would have been recorded or in US interpreted based on their country of origin.

As for Belgrade as place of birth – I have looked at and reviewed literally thousands of US censuses, draft registration cards, ddeath certificates and other documents of ethnic Serbian emigrants that state *Belgrade* as place of birth. In all but one cases that inforamtion was incorrect. :))))

If you have any original documents like ship manifests or  certificates please either post them or send them to my email to be reviewed. It is much easier for us to help once we  have established what info after emigrating is there and which of it needs to be checked against period records for territorial distribution of a surname and available public records relevant for researching ethnic Serbs – like Privrednik database and WWII victims records.

You can read more on these in our research section under *Serbian Genealogy* here:

http://www.rodoslovlje.com/en/documentation/serbian-genealogy

 

I also recommend the into general research article :

http://www.rodoslovlje.com/en/documentation/guide-researching-ethnic-serbian-ancestors-austria-hungary

because Austria as country of origin does indicate it relates to how you should be researching your ancestors.

 

Hope this helps and welcome to Rodoslovlje. 🙂

[yugaya]

as far as I know the full archive of Privrednik was moved to Belgrade together with its headquarters – so the original paper records – which will include evaluation sheets, recommendation letters, registers of cadets as well as any/all correspondence between the association and the family, caretaker, employer or the parish priest will be in one of the state archives in Belgrade,Serbia. Give me a week or two to confirm where  the records are exactly, their catalog description and the terms under which they can be researched and I will  post you the answer here.

[yugaya]

Hi Jan,

no records are available online and data from civil vital records is subject to privacy laws of the Republic of Serbia – you need to prove you are a descendant and authorize someone to ask for information/documents  via official request in municipal offices and state archives in Serbia.

 

If you provide more info – birth year, surname, birth place, we can direct you further.

 

[yugaya]

Hi Peter and welcome to Rodoslovlje:)

If you are searching for possible connection with Serbian surnames then you need to know that  among Serbs, the -KO ending suffix  would indicate a nickname or a first name of a man *from Morava*, and the surname formation ending -VIĆ  would have been added to that. I can only tell you that I have located no MORAVKOVIĆ surname in Serbia / among ethnic Serbs in other countries, and that I have found MORAVKO used as valid first name.

You can only trace and document a connection if you have a migration of an individual or a group documented in historical sources – were there any troup movements or battles of the regiments with Military Frontier Serbs,  or migrations of ethnic Serbs to the area?

 

Also as general pointers I wrote this for surnames of people from eastern Europe / Slavic origin:

Things to be confirmed before you can research etymology of a surname:

1. original spelling of the surname in the native language of your ancestors

2. original spelling of the surname for the period when your ancestors were born in their place of origin  ( this will in many cases differ from 1. due to foreign languages that were used as official language)

3. ethnic and religious affiliation of your ancestors

then you can proceed to

4. trace the family within the vital and other records in the community of origin for as far back as they exist

5. trace the  surname/family/clan/community through earlier migrations and origin in historical sources

It is always a nice chapter of family and surname history to document all places around the globe where it is found.
 

Surnames that are same or similar in Eastern Europe:

–can be the consequence of pan-Slavic root word from which they were created and similar formation patterns :

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:List_of_Proto-Slavic_nouns/Animals

–common foreign language of origin of the root word:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greek

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loanword#Loanword_transmission_in_the_Ottoman_Empire

– documented migrations :

http://republic-of-macedonia.jimdo.com/macedonian_polk_in_ukraine.php

–sheer coincidence:

http://www.zompist.com/chance.htm
 

Consider all of the above possibilities before connecting two same/similar surnames in two localities/among different ethnic groups.

 

Here is a scientific article about migrations and historical presence of ethnic Serbs in Ukraine ( available in Serbian language only) that you may find interesting :

 

http://www.rastko.rs/antropologija/ljcerovic_srbi_ukr.html

 

and one on Serbs in Slovakia ( Srbi u Slovačkoj) by the same author :

http://www.rastko.rs/antropologija/ljcerovic_srbi_slv.html

According to the historical documents, first know community of Serbs in Slovakia was recorded in 1511. when the seal of the Serbian Church district was registered in Komarno. It had around 8000 Serbs living in it at the time. You may want to contact the minority ethnic Serbian council in Slovakia as they will be able to direct you in your researches best if you believe your ancestors may have that origin.

[yugaya]

For people born after WWI ended ( 1918) the records are available in state municiapl offices and archives. You need to contact okir1793 SGS team member if you want him to help you with your research and obtaining documents and information  – he lives in Kragujevac and is well acquainted with the archives there.

 

okir1793:

http://www.rodoslovlje.com/en/user/okir1793

[yugaya]

You need to post any documents/links you have.

As for the research you have done on your Serbian heritage –  extensive research  would include having researched the original vital records  and other records  in the archives in country of origin.  Anything that is done  without that or knowing the original names, surnames and place of origin  I would consider unconfirmed –  that is  how we qualify information obtained from ship manifests and documents after emigrating, except in the case of the original church vital records of the Serbian Orthodox Church in America where priests recorded the exact address and info  on residence and family in the old country and wrote names and surnames in their original language.

I suggest you read the articles in our research section and please provide more info on your ancestors and we will see what we can do to assist you in furthering your knowledge of your heritage  after we return from our summer break – in my case that will be September:)

http://www.rodoslovlje.com/en/documentation/serbian-genealogy

Welcome to Rodoslovlje. 😀

 

[yugaya]

Lazarov family in Privrednik database:

http://baza.privrednik.net/privrednik.php?find=Lazarov&field=prezime&find1=lazarov&field1=poslodavac&find2=Lazarov&field2=povjerenik&searching=yes&search=Pretraga&t=0

AVRAMOV family:

http://baza.privrednik.net/privrednik.php?find=Avramov&field=prezime&find1=Avramov&field1=povjerenik&find2=Avramov&field2=poslodavac&searching=yes&search=Pretraga&t=0

About Privrednik database and how to interpret it:

Serbian Trade Association "Privrednik" ("The Merchant") Database

You need to post or link any documents you have and be more specific – place of origin, birth years, first names, names of siblings so that we can help you more.

 

Welcome to Rodoslovlje. 🙂

On Serbian surnames envding in – OV you can read here:

http://boards.ancestry.com/localities.eeurope.yugoslavia.serbia/1826.2.1.1.2.1.1.3.1.1.2/mb.ashx

 

[yugaya]

Welcome to Rodoslovlje 😀

Never ever ever try to base your research on what the name or a surname sounds like based on any document or spelling from ship manifests or US censuses. 🙂

For many ethnic Serbian immigrants, who in most cases did not actually come from Serbia but from Austria-Hungary like your ancestors,, it is very common that they will have wrong ethnicity listed ( Hungarian, Croatian,…. or even Austrian),  and that they will have wrongly identified their country of origin as *Serbia* . 

Please either post the documents you have  or post the links where we can view them and review them.

SAVIN is the original surname you are researching, and that surname was in the second half of the XIX century localized  in the Vojvodina province and  mostly in Kikinda area.

 

Your ancestors were ethnic Serbs and they were Eastern Orthodox and belonged to the Serbian Orthodox Church.

For original church vital records you need to contact the Serbian Orthodox Church.

For any copies of the church vital records and other records you need to contact the state historical archives in  Serbia.

Family SAVIN still lives in Ruma area today.

Also I suggest you read the articles on research of Serbian ancestors :

A Guide for Researching Ethnic Serbian Ancestors from Austria – Hungary

Naming Customs Among Ethnic Serbs XIX century

Slava – Patron Saint of the Family

and the one on Serbian Trade association "Privrednik" especially, since SAVIN family members are found in it.:

http://baza.privrednik.net/privrednik.php?find=Savin&field=prezime&find1=Savin&field1=povjerenik&find2=Savin&field2=poslodavac&searching=yes&search=Pretraga&t=0

Serbian Trade Association "Privrednik" ("The Merchant") Database

 

[yugaya]

🙂

 

– all information from after immigrating from ship manifests and censuses is to be considered UNCONFIRMED until you can verify  everything – names, surnames, ethnicity, religion, parish and place of origin in the original records from the old country.

– surnames spelled in several variants in the ORIGINAL records before emigrating for people from Hungarian ruled part of the Austria-Hungary empire are conseqhence of  – in most cases for the people who were not ethnic Hungarians – of  non-native languages that were used for official record keeping – Latin was used in church in military records, Hungarian was used in church and civil vital records as well as for travel documents, German was and Hungarian language were used for military records….you can read on that here:

http://www.rodoslovlje.com/en/documentation/magyarization-serbian-and-other-ethnic-surnames-hungary

I cannot assist you with pointing where to look further without reviewing the documents you have – ship manifests, naturalization statements, information which religion your ancestors were affiliated with or if they settled and lived in an ethnic community / were members of ethnic associations.

[yugaya]

Q:The passenger list states they were going to Milwaukee, WI to be with Petar Cabunac Helen's husband. I am unsure why she would have called Branko Petar.

A: "In the case of the given name Branko, my guess is that his legal name on church records may be Petar. "

–Given name BRANKO was/is not written as given name PETAR * legal name on church records*.

– given name Branko  is normally,  legally written in the original church vital records BRANKO – like this:

Branko ( in Latin script)

Бранко  (in Cyrillic script)

Given name was the name given at baptism and written into church records.

 

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